I listened to the podcast TMT (The Money Trench) 40: Robert Horsfall & Sonia Diwan on AI’s Big Legal Challenge and the Battle for Better Artist Contracts, which was just released today (14 April 2025). It is a very informative podcast.
Music lawyers Robert Horsfall and Sonia Diwan from Sound Advice talked about the debate over AI-generated works and opt-out scheme, the gender gap in the music industry and the extra mile women often have to take, the legal side of the music business, and their journey as lawyers – from working at Lee & Thompson to founding Sound Advice. They also touched on how the industry is evolving, songwriters’ struggles, and more.
Robert mentioned a Hong Kong tech lawyer’s article about AI ‘opt-out’ scheme. As someone with a decade in Hong Kong’s legal sphere, I was immediately curious about who the lawyer might be. After a quick search, I think he was referring to To Opt Out or not to Opt Out? – The Question of the “Opt-out model” for AI training by Anthony Leung from Haldanes, an independent law firm in Hong Kong.
| The background of the article is that the Hong Kong government and UK government after public consultation, intended to allow AI firms to harvest copyright-protected data to train their AI algorithms without obtaining prior approval from copyright owners. And there is an opt-out scheme, which means copyright owners need to expressly indicate their works cannot be used for AI training in order to be exempt. Anthony argues measures like this are likely causing more harm. The first problem the article raised was that the opt-out scheme clashes with the copyright concept – since copyright is my right, why should I have to specifically claim that you cannot use my work for AI training purposes? And to actually opt-out is technically and practically difficult for copyright owners. Anthony concludes that ‘[l]egislating for AI requires a comprehensive solution.’ |
Robert advocates for a system of ethical licensing, promoting transparency and attribution which requires efforts from every rights holder. I agree with both. Sometimes, governments try to solve new challenges with quick legislation, which may not be the right approach.
Sonia shared that when she started her music law career 30 years ago, there were only two female role models in the industry. While there are now more women in leadership roles, the struggle remains, and women still have to go the extra mile.
They also shared how the industry has shifted: the typical six-album deal length has become shorter; contracts have changed from life of copyright to allowing artists to reclaim their copyright later; and streaming royalty rates are getting higher than before (although still not high enough). Sonia mentioned songwriters’ struggle, especially at their early career, and they should get their fees or master points from labels.
At the end of the podcast, they shared some personal anecdotes – gigs they attended and memorable clients. One that stood out was Robert’s client, Geoffrey Gurrumul Yunupingu, a blind guitar player and singer who passed away at the age of 46. I looked him up and found his song I was born blind. I was already welling up at the humming in the intro. That’s the magic of music. Here is the link of the song, join me and feel the magic of music.
